The Lion Project (tu5 8v turbo build)

[Plex]

bodgea, nice infor there..i see u into the euros..i have heard about the citroen engine 1600 but never thought that monster had power hiding.

[dlittlelion]

Ok just an update��.I installed a 255lph fuel pump and a 12:1 adjustable FPR I removed the stock fuel regulator valve on the fuel rail and replaced the old patched up fuel lines������so far the stock injectors are supplying enough fuel for 5lbs of boost

I have the fifth injector plumbed in (with an indicator led mounted on the dash) but its programmed to fire only when the throttle is open pass 5 degrees the intake pressure is above 4lbs and the voltage on my O2 sensor drops to 0.4V I have a bypass switch just in case meh home made injector driver fails����but so far if the extra injector is allowed to come on with boost alone I�m getting plenty black smoke and the A/F gauge flashing from very rich to lean like crazy���.I�m expecting my stock injectors to fail sooner or later������breaks ah need breaks plenty breaks

[Plex]

dlittlelion, u going with the rear disc?

[dlittlelion]

will like 2

[Plex]

or u cannot get the rear disc yet, consider upgrading the front first.

[saltydog]

dlitllelion, consider some managment - while plenty black smoke might seem better than running lean but you are actually losing power and damaging the engine. I think at this stage you should attempt a dyno run to log the a/f ratios, or find someone with an data logger like the LM-1. This will help keep all those parts inside you engine your friend. check out the link below (oh by the way I know someone that has one)
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php

[saltydog]

sorry about the long post but it is worth a read.

Application Note: You CAN be too Rich
By Klaus Allmendinger, VP of Engineering, Innovate Motorsports
Many people with turbochargers believe that they need to run at very rich mixtures. The theory is that the excess fuel cools the intake charge and therefore reduces the probability of knock. It does work in reducing knock, but not because of charge cooling. The following little article shows why.

First let�s look at the science. Specific heat is the amount of energy required to raise 1 kg of material by one degree K (Kelvin, same as Celsius but with 0 point at absolute zero). Different materials have different specific heats. The energy is measured in kJ or kilojoules:

Air ~ 1 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Gasoline 2.02 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Water 4.18 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Ethanol 2.43 kJ/( kg * deg K)
Methanol 2.51 kJ/( kg * deg K)

Fuel and other liquids also have what's called latent heat. This is the heat energy required to vaporize 1 kg of the liquid. The fuel in an internal combustion engine has to be vaporized and mixed thoroughly with the incoming air to produce power. Liquid gasoline does not burn. The energy to vaporize the fuel comes partially from the incoming air, cooling it. The latent heat energy required is actually much larger than the specific heat. That the energy comes from the incoming air can be easily seen on older carbureted cars, where frost can actually form on the intake manifold from the cooling of the charge.

The latent heat values of different liquids are shown here:

Gasoline 350 kJ/kg
Water 2256 kJ/kg
Ethanol 904 kJ/kg
Methanol 1109 kJ/kg

Most engines produce maximum power (with optimized ignition timing) at an air-fuel-ratio between 12 and 13. Let's assume the optimum is in the middle at 12.5. This means that for every kg of air, 0.08 kg of fuel is mixed in and vaporized. The vaporization of the fuel extracts 28 kJ of energy from the air charge. If the mixture has an air-fuel-ratio of 11 instead, the vaporization extracts 31.8 kJ instead. A difference of 3.8 kJ. Because air has a specific heat of about 1 kJ/kg*deg K, the air charge is only 3.8 C (or K) degrees cooler for the rich mixture compared to the optimum power mixture. This small difference has very little effect on knock or power output.

If instead of the richer mixture about 10% (by mass) of water would be injected in the intake charge (0.008 kg Water/kg air), the high latent heat of the water would cool the charge by 18 degrees, about 4 times the cooling effect of the richer mixture. The added fuel for the rich mixture can't burn because there is just not enough oxygen available. So it does not matter if fuel or water is added.

So where does the knock suppression of richer mixtures come from?

If the mixture gets ignited by the spark, a flame front spreads out from the spark plug. This burning mixture increases the pressure and temperature in the cylinder. At some time in the process the pressures and temperatures peak. The speed of the flame front is dependent on mixture density and AFR. A richer or leaner AFR than about 12-13 AFR burns slower. A denser mixture burns faster.

So with a turbo under boost the mixture density raises and results in a faster burning mixture. The closer the peak pressure is to TDC, the higher that peak pressure is, resulting in a high knock probability. Also there is less leverage on the crankshaft for the pressure to produce torque, and, therefore, less power.

Richening up the mixture results in a slower burn, moving the pressure peak later where there is more leverage, hence more torque. Also the pressure peak is lower at a later crank angle and the knock probability is reduced. The same effect can be achieved with an optimum power mixture and more ignition retard.

Optimum mix with �later� ignition can produce more power because more energy is released from the combustion of gasoline. Here�s why: When hydrocarbons like gasoline combust, the burn process actually happens in multiple stages. First the gasoline molecules are broken up into hydrogen and carbon. The hydrogen combines with oxygen from the air to form H2O (water) and the carbon molecules form CO. This process happens very fast at the front edge of the flame front. The second stage converts CO to CO2. This process is relatively slow and requires water molecules (from the first stage) for completion. If there is no more oxygen available (most of it consumed in the first stage), the second stage can't happen. But about 2/3 of the energy released from the burning of the carbon is released in the second stage. Therefore a richer mixture releases less energy, lowering peak pressures and temperatures, and produces less power. A secondary side effect is of course also a lowering of knock probability. It's like closing the throttle a little. A typical engine does not knock when running on part throttle because less energy and therefore lower pressures and temperatures are in the cylinder.

This is why running overly-rich mixtures can not only increase fuel consumption, but also cost power

[dlittlelion]

The problem with allowing the fifth injector to fire with boost is that, all situations other than wide open throttle the ECU will try to correct the RICH mixture by regulating the flow of the injectors.

The car actually runs better with the fifth injector off the acceleration is seamless and the RICH/LEAN gauge stays within the amber with a few green spikes.

With the fifth injector engaged there is a bit of hesitation, the RICH/LEAN gauge flashes like crazy from rich to lean and back until WIDE OPEN THROTTLE at WIDE OPEN THROTTLE all the green on the RICH/LEAN gauge lights up and smoke like ah diesel pelting out the exhaust.

But I do admit I need proper management I�m searching far and wide for a vernier cam gear and I have a PREFECT POWER SMT 6 to install this will be able to take care of my timing needs when I increase my boost levels

[Plex]

i guess u are almost ready to dyno.

[saltydog]

You can make a vernier cam gear very easily. Know a good machine shop that can take 2 stock pulleys and do the modifications. I just curious though you still have the stock cam? why you feel a vernier necessary? BTW be careful with the SMT if you think this will take care of all your timing needs think again. I have installed a few of these and while it is not a bad little unit it is limited, especially in the timing department. The ECU in the car does not allow for two much adjustment. Consider a full stand alone system like the PRS 4 if you want a budget system. If you interested send me a PM I have a new one in the Box, piper price...... well almost piper price

[dlittlelion]

[quote="saltydog"] why you feel a vernier necessary?

I'm using a 1.2mm decomprission plate with 7 ply head gasket This combination causes an increase in deck height which lowers the compression and throws the timing off just a bit

[saltydog]

Oh did not realize you had done all that, what compression do you estimate the engine to be now? 7 ply head gasket? is this 2 gaskets together or did you get a special gasket? How is the engine off boost, a bit lazy i would guess, how much boost are you running? we ran 11Psi in the 306 with basic modifications and after 60000km pulled down the head and everthing looked good. consider the stand alone it will help you no end.
The only problem with this project is the limiting factor of the gearbox, it cant take the jamming, which is unfortunate cause you could get a nice 15sec car that will surpise lots of people. The ultimate is to get the plate to mount the 1.8 gearbox to the 1.6 and then you can handle 250Bhp. They are available in the UK for about 400 pounds, minus the box of course.

[dlittlelion]

i got the head gasket at N&M its made up of 5 layers (not 7 my bad)rivited 2geather its thicker than and different in composition to the one i had on.
my calculated CR ratio is about 8.1:1

[saltydog]

That head gasket is just the repair gasket for when the head has been shaved. There will not be much difference in compression unless you are using 2 of them. This normally would be a no no but we have done it. Maybe cause they are metal the sealing is not as much of an issue. There are companies that will make a gasket for you to lower your compresion properly, right now you are most likely running 9.5:1 which means you have to be precise with the fuel and ignition curves or detonaton will be an issue. These engines are pretty strong and you can get away with a lot but there is only so much it can take. I will give you a call.

[Plex]

saltydog, what is your views on the diesel rods from a 306 D turbo to be used on the fuel injected 306 models?